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Tag Archives: Eleanor Nickerson

I Now Pronounce You, Lucia – But How?

24 Saturday Oct 2015

Posted by A.O. in Naming Assistance

≈ 6 Comments

Tags

British Baby Names, choosing baby names, Eleanor Nickerson, Facebook, fictional namesakes, Italian names, locational names, nicknames, pronunciation, Roman names

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Catherine and her husband are putting together a long list of names for their baby, due next year. One of the names they are seriously considering is Lucia.

Catherine loves the English pronunciation for the name – LOO-sha, or LOO-shee-uh – as an interesting variation of Lucy. However, she is very wary about giving her little girl a lifetime of explaining and correcting the pronunciation of her name.

There are a few women named Lucia in Catherine’s family tree during the 19th century, and Catherine is of English and Irish ancestry. She wonders how these Lucias would have pronounced their names.

Catherine also wonders if anyone can help identify some characters named Lucia in English literature. There are plenty called Lucy and Lucinda, but precious few Lucias. She can think of Lucia from E.F. Benson’s Mapp and Lucia books (but Lucia is just a nickname and said the Italian way), and there is Lucia di Lammermoor from the Italian opera, but the character’s real name is Lucy, Lucia is an Italian translation of it.

* * * * * * * * * *

Catherine, I think there might be two questions you are asking here about Lucia’s pronunciation

1. Is there a traditional or historical British pronunciation of Lucia, perhaps even one which can be referred to as a “correct” pronunciation for English-speakers?
2. How would the majority of Australians say the name Lucia, to give you an idea of how often it might need to be explained or corrected in everyday life?

These are highly intelligent and practical questions, but unfortunately I don’t think I have a definitive answer to either of them.

I can tell you the correct historical pronunciation of Lucia – it’s LOO-kee-uh. It’s a Roman name, and that’s how the ancient Romans would have said it. Needless to say, nobody says it this way, which perhaps puts a bit of a question mark over the usefulness of correct historical pronunciations.

As far as I know, English-speakers say both LOO-sha and loo-SEE-uh. Which one your ancestors might have used is a bit of a puzzle. The Caribbean island of St. Lucia is said LOO-sha, which seems like it should be a clue, but perhaps isn’t.

It also occurs to me that Italian travel and culture was incredibly fashionable for the upper classes in Britain in the 19th century, which makes me wonder if your ancestors (if upper class or social climbers in even a mild way) might have used the Italian pronunciation, loo-CHEE-uh, to signal how cultured they were.

I will make a point of posting this article on the Facebook page for British Baby Names, in the hopes that name expert Elea Nickerson might be able to shed some light on the issue.

As to how most Australians would pronounce Lucia, I think it depends a lot on where they’re from. Anyone from an area with a significant Italian population is probably going to say loo-CHEE-uh. I would imagine that Italian-Australians would almost always say loo-CHEE-uh, and in a few cases, might persist with that pronunciation even after being told the person prefers it said another way.

I would probably say loo-SEE-uh if I saw it written down, maybe because of the name Lucy (I also tend to say LOO-see-us and LOO-see-an for the male names). I have met many other Australians who say loo-SEE-uh, although it seems to be less common than loo-CHEE-uh. In fact I’ve noticed a lot of Australians seem to think loo-SEE-uh is a mispronunciation of loo-CHEE-uh!

A friend in Brisbane tells me that everyone she knows says LOO-sha, because that’s how the exclusive suburb of St. Lucia in Brisbane is pronounced. It’s named after the Caribbean island, which is why it has the same pronunciation.

From my extremely unscientific polling of friends and relatives in different parts of the country, loo-CHEE-uh is the most common by far, then loo-SEE-uh, then LOO-sha – except in Queensland where LOO-sha seems most common.

Of course, once you are introduced to a Lucia and she says her name aloud, you automatically say it the way she does. It shouldn’t really need to be “corrected” unless you see her name written down first (on a class list, for example) and have to guess the pronunciation.

I think it is a name where you have to get good at introducing yourself clearly and firmly so people immediately understand the way you want it said. It’s also a name where if you travel around the world, you would need to be tolerant of people saying your name in different ways. I do think pronunciation might be an issue (unless you’re in Brisbane), but hopefully not to the point where it really bothers you.

You’re right that Lucia is not a very literary name. Like you, the first two things I think of are the Lucia from Mapp and Lucia, and Lucia di Lammermoor. For the uninitiated, the character from Mapp and Lucia is named Emmeline Lucas, so Lucia is a nickname from her surname. She uses the Italian pronunciation, which the author E.F. Benson seems to suggest is rather pretentious for an English person.

There’s a Lucia in the fantasy novel series Falling Kingdoms by Morgan Rhodes. She is a beautiful princess with great magical power, and the novels link her name with the meaning of “light”. There’s a mildly icky quasi-incest plotline.

Chick-lit novel Lucia, Lucia by Adriana Trigiani is set in post-war New York. Lucia is an Italian-American girl with a passion for fashion, but it’s the 1950s so good luck with those career aspirations.

In Lucia’s Eyes by Arthur Japin is a historical novel about an Italian servant girl who is the first lover of the famous Casanova. That leads almost directly to international prostitution, and a hideous facial disfigurement doesn’t seem to be a barrier to her profession.

The Lucia Chronicles by Jennifer L. Kelly feature Lucia Giroux and are set in a dystopian near-future in the United States. The name Lucia is again linked with the theme of “light”.

The trouble with all these namesakes is none of them are particularly positive. Emmeline aka Lucia is comically, even lovably, ghastly, while Lucia di Lammermoor goes mad and stabby. None of the others have great experiences, with incestuous love, broken dreams, a poxy face, and destroyed illusions in store for them. Lucias in books are clearly in for a tragic time.

Better to concentrate on the name’s other attributes. It’s pretty and elegant with a beautiful meaning and tons of nickname options, and is fashionable yet still underused. Isn’t that enough?

UPDATE: The baby was a girl, and her name is Margaret!

POLL RESULTS
Most people thought the name Lucia would probably need more explanations and corrections than usual because of its different pronunciations, but nothing that couldn’t be coped with. There was a significant number that thought it would be a major issue.
45% said Lucia would need more corrections than usual, but that it wasn’t necessarily a huge problem
30% said Lucia would need to be corrected a lot
13% said Lucia would need to be explained and corrected every single time upon meeting someone new
10% didn’t think Lucia would need more correction than any other name
One person thought Lucia would “hardly ever” need correction, and one optimistic soul was sure it would never need it

44% of people pronounced Lucia loo-CHEE-uh
43% said it loo-SEE-uh
12% said it LOO-sha
One person said it LOO-cha

(Picture shows an artist’s impression of Lucia from Falling Kingdoms)

Famous Name: Eleanor

16 Wednesday Sep 2015

Posted by A.O. in Famous Names

≈ 3 Comments

Tags

aristocratic names, British Baby Names, classic names, created names, Eleanor Nickerson, famous namesakes, flower names, French names, germanic names, Greek names, honouring, name history, name meaning, name popularity, popular names, Provencal names, royal names, Sanskrit names, Sindarin names, UK name popularity, US name popularity

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Famous Namesakes
Last month was the 114th birthday of author Eleanor Dark, who was born August 26 1901. Her most famous novel is The Timeless Land, published in 1941, the first in a trilogy about early European settlement. Sympathetic towards Aboriginal people and meticulously researched, the book was part of the high school curriculum for many years and is now considered an Australian classic. It even inspired the famous historian Manning Clark. It was turned into a successful TV series in 1980.

When Eleanor married Eric Dark, a widowed doctor, she asked for three things: an equal partnership, a child, and the freedom to write. Eleanor got a studio in the garden where she could write in peace, a maid to help with the housework, and emotional support and encouragement for her writing. Her other wish was granted when she and Eric had a son named Michael; they already had a son named John, from Eric’s first marriage.

Thoughtful and generous, the Darks shared progressive ideals. An active member of the Labor left, Eric wrote political books and pamphlets which attracted attention from the anti-communist Menzies government and ASIO, and the entire Dark family was probably under surveillance. Although she considered herself apolitical, Eleanor’s socialist and feminist views permeate her work, and she was a scathing critic of middle-class suburbia.

The Darks moved to Katoomba in the Blue Mountains in 1923, and enjoyed bush walking, camping, climbing, and exploring. Eleanor was one of the first gardeners to grow Australian native plants as well as exotics. In her novels, the Australian landscape is not just a backdrop but almost another character. She believed that as people change the environment, the environment also changes us, and that we are part of the country in both mind and body. In her books are some of the most beautiful and loving evocations of the bush; its scents and sounds, its silence and spirit.

After Eleanor died in 1985, her son Michael gave the Dark family home in Katoomba to the Eleanor Dark Foundation. Named Varuna after the Hindu god of the ocean, the night sky, and the underworld, the house sits on a ridge overlooking the valleys of the Blue Mountains. Varuna is now a residential retreat, where authors can find a room of their own, and uninterrupted writing time; Eleanor’s studio is still in use. It was a wonderful gift for Eleanor as an author, and now for many others too.

Name Information
Eleanor is the modern form of Éléonore, the Old French form of the Provençal name Aliénor. Eleanor of Aquitaine (born around 1122) is often identified as the first bearer of the name Aliénor, and a popular story is that her name came about because she was christened Aénor, and as her mother’s name was also Aénor, she was known as alia Aénor, meaning “the other Aénor”. This suggestion was labelled “ridiculous” by a French scholar in the 17th century, but is still going strong.

There were earlier women with similar names – Eleanor of Aquitaine’s own great-grandmother is listed as Aleanor. However, the records for these early Eleanors post-date Eleanor of Aquitaine, so their names could have been conveniently translated into Eleanor (or Alienor or Aleanor) by later writers.

Eleanor of Aquitaine’s great-grandmother’s name seems to have been more like Adenorde, sometimes written as Ainor. It would be a reasonable assumption that Aénor was a variant of this name, and Aliénor was too. The origin of Adenorde is obscure, but looks to be Germanic.

Eleanor “Elea” Nickerson from British Baby Names suggests it could be from the Germanic name element adal, meaning “noble”, or from ald, meaning “old, mature, grown up”. The norde looks like the Germanic for “north. Another of Eleanor Nickerson’s suggestions is that it could be related to those Germanic names starting with aud-, meaning “wealth, riches”.

Another popular theory is that Eleanor is a Provençal form of Helen, Ellen, or Elena – also of ancient and obscure origin. Helen is usually said to be from the Greek for “light, bright”, although it may be ultimately from Sanskrit and mean “running, swift” (quite suitable for a runaway bride like Helen of Troy!). The reason for the Eleanor = Helen idea is probably because Eleanor of Aquitaine had her name Latinised as Helienordis. At the very least it is possible that the name Eleanor was influenced by the various Helen names, becoming fused (or confused?).

At least everyone agrees that Eleanor of Aquitaine popularised the name Eleanor. One of the wealthiest and most influential women of the Middle Ages, Eleanor was Duchess of Aquitaine in her own right, making her such an eligible bride that she was snapped up by both Louis VII and Henry II, so she became a queen of France, then of England. She was the mother of Richard the Lionheart and King John, and one of her daughters was named after her – Eleanor who became queen of Castile, and was a similarly powerful figure.

Eleanor of Aquitaine was clever, charming, sophisticated, and high-spirited, and contemporary sources all agree that she was very beautiful. She survived into her eighties, and outlived both husbands and most of her children. She was perhaps more woman than most medieval men could handle, and she was let go by her first husband, and imprisoned for years by her second.

The name Eleanor became common amongst both French and English royalty and nobility. King John named one of his daughters Eleanor after his mother, and French noblewoman Eleanor of Provence married Henry III, becoming the mother of Edward I. Edward married Eleanor of Castile, who was named after her great-grandmother, the daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine. In turn, Edward I named his eldest daughter Eleanor, and her daughter was given the name Eleanor; Edward II also named a daughter Eleanor after Eleanor of Aquitaine.

Eleanor is a classic name which has never left the charts. It was #98 in the 1900s, and reached its lowest point in the 1960s at #454. It climbed steadily until the 1990s, after which it levelled off for many years, remaining stable in the 100s. Eleanor joined the Top 100 for the first time since the 1900s last year, climbing 31 places to reach #84, the second-highest rise in rank after Ariana. It is #82 in New South Wales, where it was one of the fastest-rising names for the year, #77 in Queensland, where it was one of the fastest-rising names, #54 in Tasmania, and #45 in the Australian Capital Territory.

Eleanor also joined the US Top 100 last year, and is #78 there. It was popular in the US from the end of the 19th century until World War II, and peaked in 1920 at #25. Long-serving First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt gave it a lot of publicity; her first name was Anna, but she went by her middle name. Eleanor was popular in the UK from the middle of the 19th century until the 1930s, and returned to the Top 100 in the 1980s. It peaked at #18 in 1999, and is currently #60 in England/Wales.

Up until this year, I would have said that Eleanor was a perfect, classic, underused choice. It was too perfect and classic to remain underused forever, as it has now become a Top 100 name. You can understand why, as it has both strength and elegance, a marvellous royal namesake, and the option of nicknames such as Elle, Ella, Ellie, Elea, Nell, Nellie, and Nora.

Spelling variants such as Elinor and Ellanore are not unusual; the name Elanor is from The Lord of the Rings and means “sun star” in the invented Sindarin language – in Tolkien’s universe, an elanor was a small yellow pimpernel-like flower, and the name was given to Sam Gamgee’s golden-haired daughter. In Australia, Eleanor is usually said EL-uh-nawr, similar to the American pronunciation, although you will sometimes hear a British pronunciation here, which is more like EL-en-uh.

POLL RESULTS
Eleanor received an outstanding approval rating of 91%, making it the highest-rated Famous Name for girls in 2015, and the highest-rated Famous Name overall. People saw the name Eleanor as elegant and refined (28%), dignified and intellectual (23%), and beautiful or attractive (17%). However 5% thought it was too popular. Only one person thought Eleanor seemed snobbish or elitist, and likewise just one was bothered by the number of spellings and pronunciations.

(Photo of the Blue Mountains near Varuna from Hook to Book by Christine Bell; Christine gives a wonderful insight into what life is like as a writer at Varuna).

This or That?

16 Sunday Dec 2012

Posted by A.O. in Your Questions Answered

≈ 11 Comments

Tags

Biblical names, celebrity baby names, choosing baby names, classic names, Eleanor Nickerson, faux-Celtic names, Irish names, name combinations, name popularity, nicknames, popular names, retro names, scandinavian names, Scottish names, surname names, unisex names, vocabulary words

l_2048_1536_55BA4ECF-57A0-4861-954A-D5C549924414After considering all the possible baby names, and a few impossible ones just for good measure, sometimes you end up with two or three names that you love equally, and just can’t choose between them.

Many people searched the Internet to discover which of their final options would make the better choice, and somehow stumbled upon this blog.

I decided to answer their questions, and found that quite often the name that seemed “better” wasn’t the name I liked best, or that I would choose.

Perhaps that is the lesson to be learnt here – not to look for the name which ticks the most boxes, or which fulfils more of your preferences, but the one which satisfies your heart the most.

When there is no right or wrong answer, how do you decide between the last two names on your list?

Adele or Adeline?

Classic Adele is the safer choice, and retro Adeline the more daring choice. I think I would be tempted to go with Adeline.

Riley or Caleb?

I would go for the Biblical name, as having more history behind it, and say Caleb.

Ryan or Dylan?

You ask which one sounds as if it is in a higher socio-economic group. To me, both seem fairly average or “normal”, and I don’t think I could pick one over another.

Rocco or Frankie?

Rocco – it’s rapidly increasing in popularity while still underused. Frankie is more fashionable as a feminine name now (if that bothers you).

Chloe or Lily?

Both are extremely popular, but I would say Chloe is the safer choice, as it has been Top 100 since the 1980s and only just peaked. Chloe also has a classical background, and is popular with all classes. Despite that, I prefer Lily.

Lillian or Clara?

I’d go with Clara, simply because it isn’t in the Top 100 yet and Lillian is.

Clara or Kayla?

Definitely Clara – Kayla doesn’t have the history behind her that Clara does, and is on her way out.

Clara or Zara?

I think I’m going to have to back Clara again, just to be consistent.

Zara or Allegra?

I love Allegra, but I have to admit she’s a risky choice, since she does seem to be getting quite trendy as a celebrity baby name. My heart says Allegra, but my head says Zara.

Charlie or Jack?

I’d go with Jack if you want a classic name that is definitely masculine, and is a short form that has been long established as a full name. Charlie is very cute though.

James or Hamish?

James is the safer choice, being a classic that’s never left the Top 20. Hamish is a bit riskier, but if you want something obviously Scottish, then Hamish is your boy.

Hunter or Archer?

I prefer Archer, because you get Archie as a nickname. If you hate nicknames, then Hunter is probably more appropriate.

Evalyn or Aveline?

You ask which one sounds “lovelier”; in my opinion, it is Aveline. However, I think Evelyn is lovelier than Aveline. Can I interest you in Evelyn?

Emmie or Emma?

You ask which one sounds “softer”; to me, Emma sounds softer.

Indie or Milla?

Even though Milla is Top 100 and Indie doesn’t chart, I’m going to say Milla. This is because if all the spelling variants were combined, I think Indie would be Top 100 as well. To me, Milla seems more distinctive.

Amelia or Matilda?

These are both safe choices, although if popularity bothers you, you should know that Amelia is probably heading for the #1 spot, which she already holds in the UK.

Annie or Matilda?

If you want something less popular, yet which has been stable for many years, then pick Annie. If you would prefer a non-nickname choice, then go with Matilda.

Josephine, Violet or Mathilda?

Josephine is the safest choice, and Mathilda seems trendiest because Scandinavian-type names are coming into fashion. I think Violet is the prettiest. You could use all three, because Josephine Violet Mathilda is really nice as a name combination.

Josephine or Audrey?

Both classic names, but Josephine is more stable, and isn’t in the Top 100. I find Audrey really adorable though, so I’m going to go against the sensible advice and say Audrey. If you’re feeling sensible, pick Josephine.

Elsie or Josie?

Definitely Elsie – it’s fashionable, increasing steadily in popularity, and Eleanor Nickerson tips it to become the next Evie in the UK.

Luella or Eloise?

Eloise is the more stylish and safer choice, but Luella is sweeter.

Eloise or Matilda?

I think Eloise is the clear winner here, because it’s still at the bottom of the Top 100, and seems more up-and-coming.

Matilda or Helen?

Classic Helen has been stable for decades, and peaked in the 1940s, suggesting she may be due for a comeback in about ten years or so. I’d be inclined to be brave and choose Helen.

Max or Darcy?

Max is by far the safer choice, as Darcy is losing popularity as other surname names take its place. I think I like Darcy better though.

Max Archie or Max Oscar?

When I hear “Max Oscar“, I immediately visualise a gigantic Academy Award statue, so I prefer Max Archie.

Oscar or Lucas?

Oscar – Lucas is just about to hit its peak.

Finn or Lewis?

Lewis if you want a classic name that’s less popular, Finn if you’re looking for an Irish heritage choice.

Kallan or Flynn?

Flynn – I don’t like it when names randomly start with a K instead of a C.

Taj or Kyan?

Taj. I’ve noticed faux-Celtic names like Kyan tend to have a short shelf life and date quickly.

Keira or Kirra?

Oh, go for the Australian choice and pick Kirra – be patriotic.

Sibella or Imogen?

Sibella, although much less popular, seems more trendy, and may get lost amongst the other Bella names, so I would pick Imogen.

Maisie or Matilda?

I love Maisie, she’s so sweet and charming, and seems much fresher than Matilda, so that would be my preference.

Matilda or Lilah?

Matilda – I don’t like that spelling of Lila, which makes no sense to me.

Jett or Jet?

Tough call. I think I might be tempted to go with vocabulary word Jet, which seems more fashion-forward.

Jai or Jye?

Jai – it seems more like a real name.

Jett, Levi or Jai?

Levi. Probably because it stands out pitted against two names starting with J.

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